Re: Basketball Division Question

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ SoCalHoops Womens Forum ] [ FAQ ]

Posted by Miss the Point on AV dislike on January 30, 2017 at 09:04:37:

In Reply to: Re: Basketball Division Question posted by Further clarification on January 29, 2017 at 09:51:47:

: : : : : : : : : : : : I saw the formula but I'm confused on how it's weighted. Next year what will make you move up or down divisions? What has to be the win % and how far will you have to advance in the playoffs to move up. And what will it take to move down?? What if your 24-3 but lose in the 2nd round?? Were will you go

: : : : : : : : : : : It is a 2 year ranking. Each team is given points for every game. Points are weighted based on your level of opponent. The teams in 1AA and 1A have the highest power rating and therefore your team gets maximum points for a win and a loss. Teams who play Division 1 and 2 teams will get more points even if they lose than teams playing Division 5 and 6 teams. You also get bonus points for each round of playoffs. This year they put equal weight to each of the last 2 years (50-50). Every year they will redo the divisions based on the preceding 2 years. So, your team will be rated on those season and 15-16. Obviously 15-16 is already done. 16-17 rankings will begin as soon as CIF champions are crowned. CIF may have already started ratings for all I know but not sure. It is easy to do under their current system, but tweaks may need to be made. There are still some teams in divisions they clearly should not be on, but since it is based on the teams previous 2 years, some teams suffer success placement despite heavy graduation loss and some teams greatly benefit from being bad for 3 years and now having a better team.

: : : : : : : : : : The last two years were weighted 33% - 67% according to the CIF website.

: : : : : : : : : To clarify. If a team were to play lower level teams and win a lot they could potentially move down in divisions? Where as a team who plays a tougher schedule versus D1 and D2 schools but lose a lot of those games could be moved up? Then obviously playoff success comes in to play. Thanks for any clarity.

: : : : : : : : The above poster was indeed correct (33% - 67%)

: : : : : : : : Formula for points against a 1AA or 1A school:
: : : : : : : : Level 1 (75% win percentage or Higher):
: : : : : : : : Win = 50 points Loss = 20 points
: : : : : : : : Level 2 (74% - 50% win percentage):
: : : : : : : : Win = 38 points Loss = 15 points
: : : : : : : : Level 3 (49% - 25% win percentage):
: : : : : : : : Win = 26 points Loss = 10 points
: : : : : : : : Level 4 (24% win percentage or Lower):
: : : : : : : : Win = 14 points Loss = 5 points

: : : : : : : : Formula for points against a 4AA or 4A school:
: : : : : : : : Level 1 (75% win percentage or Higher):
: : : : : : : : Win = 20 points Loss = 8 points
: : : : : : : : Level 2 (74% - 50% win percentage):
: : : : : : : : Win = 15 points Loss = 6 points
: : : : : : : : Level 3 (49% - 25% win percentage):
: : : : : : : : Win = 10 points Loss = 4 points
: : : : : : : : Level 4 (24% win percentage or Lower):
: : : : : : : : Win = 5 points Loss = 2 points

: : : : : : : : These can be found on the website. As you can see there is a great disparity depending on who you play. The most possible points you can get from defeating a D4 school is 20 (and that's if the team is winning at a 75% or better clip). You get 50 for beating a D1 school with the same record and in fact get 20 just for losing to them. Teams who are in leagues with D1 schools get far more points.

: : : : : : : : With this formula, coaches now need to consider who they are playing out of league. No coach can control what league they are in. For example, AV (in 1A this year) is in a league where the 2nd highest rated team is 3A and all other schools are D4 or D5. This constitutes 14 of AV's 20 allowable contests and greatly reduces their points. And, it hurts the 7 teams because they get the maximum total of 40 for losing to AV twice.

: : : : : : : : A school like Los Osos (3A this year) plays in a league where two of the teams are Division 1, two of the teams are Division 2 and 2 are Division 3, so their power points are going up considerably this year since they are having a great year and defeating D1 and D2 schools. They will most likely do what AV did last year and jump from 3A to 1A.

: : : : : : : : Those are 2 examples off the top of my head. Obviously there are 570 others :)

: : : : : : : : Most teams play a mix of schools from several divisions, especially since this formula is brand new this year. However, rest assured that the manipulation of the system will begin next year as more and more become familiar with the formula.

: : : : : : : St. Lucy's is in that league too, so they will get the same experience as Los Osos and probably accumulate enough points, even though they will go 0-10 in league. They already shouldn't be in that league, now they are going to get punished more by being pushed up. Might as well cancel basketball there!

: : : : : : Yes, St. Lucy's is in a rough spot as are dozens of other teams... this is one reason why Marlborough got out of their league.....Leagues are generally proximity driven, not competitively divided at all...

: : : : : In the Mt. Sac area releaguing is done based on competitiveness of football, everyone else is along for the ride. However, they voted that football can be in separate leagues from the rest of the sports recently. So that may alter how divisions fall. But St. Lucy's still goes where Damien goes because of the idea that the girls and boys sports should be league together (or more like who care about the girls because they are never even mention at the releaguing meeting). Girls and boys sports should be league separately. It is already done in some areas for softball and baseball.

: : : : Honestly, most AD's want a nice and neat package when it comes to scheduling. Placing teams in different leagues and dealing with different districts is a huge deal. In our league, I know the AD's love using the same schedule for multiple sports. Any chink in that armor would cause them nightmares. Often it isn't what's in the best interest of the student-athlete, it is what is in the best interest of the school when it comes to scheduling and budgets. There is no perfect answer or perfect solution when dealing with 570 schools in the southern section.

: : : Currently working on a Girls basketball only league set up based on competitiveness over the last 5 years.

: : While the "14 of 20 allowable games" statement is true it isn't telling the whole truth. Southern Section schools may play in up to 3 tournaments. Each tourament counts as 2 of their "allowable games" but typically actually play 4 games and sometimes in a tournament with enough participants even 5 games so for instance in the case of AV their 6 non-league allowable games actually could equal 12 to 15 games.

: The district AV happens to belong to does not financially support athletics very well. Your budget is $750 and 1 paid tournament. By the time you purchase 10 basketballs, a few jump ropes, scorebooks, etc. you have no money left. The ASB generally pays for 1 tournament (if you are lucky ASB might pay for a lower level tourney as well). Transportation is always an issue. Local busing is ok but nothing outside the AV. You then have to pay for gas in vans and hope 2-3 are available that day, let alone 4-5 days in a row.

: As a result of all these issues, AV hosts a tournament and a showcase day in an attempt to raise money. I happen to know they do other fundraising as well. So, yes "2" other allowable games are their tournament they host (in which most "upper" level teams won't attend) and the showcase gives AV "3" allowable games left. Last year they went to Palisades and this year they went to CV. They aren't ducking anyone.

: I am sick and tired of people bashing a couple of coaches who put in a tremendous amount of time, effort and energy into a program that is doing nothing but elevating the stature of these young ladies. Additionally, the opportunity to go to state last year is an experience those young ladies will not always have but it will push them to more success and the knowledge that they can overcome obstacles.

: I'm not going to go into the issues these young ladies have had to overcome, but suffice it to say it is movie worthy. Do they chirp and sometimes lose it a bit on the court? Yes. Do a handful of their fans go overboard in the stands at times? Yes. Could their schedule be a bit tougher? Yes. Could everyone on this site calm down and quit trying to bash every positive experience that isn't Open Division? Yes. Could AV compete on that same Open Division? Yes. And that Yes has been confirmed by Open Committee members so it is not unfounded.

: In the end, these girls feed the homeless, do community service around the valley, work their tail off for the sport they love, earn grades and do all this in a less than desirable area.
: Kudos to the coaches for putting in the work for almost a decade now. It may get bashed on this website, but the people who know appreciate what you have and continue to accomplish. Good luck in 1A or Open, wherever CIF puts you.

Don't doubt anything you just said. Much too informed to not be true.

However, acknowledge the reason for the dislike of the team by people here.

Yes, the girls get out of control on the court both verbally and physically. That's on the coach to discipline and curtail. It's a life lesson that needs to be learned.

The parents are out-of-hand rude and obnoxious. Again, on the Coach and AD to control and stop. Ejection is a powerful tool. Again, life lesson. Because the other team's players/coaches/parents don't deserve to be a part of it.

Finally, the Coach needs to keep the parents off this board saying how great they are and how they can beat all the top teams.

No one should ever come on here and say how great you are - and that includes the LBP's and Chaminades, etc. of the world.

Be proud of your team. Say, "Wow, we are lucky to have a loaded team this year and we are hoping to kick everyone's butt now because in a year or two we might not have the players".

I feel for your circumstances, but most schools face financial issues with their sports programs, especially the girls. Some, obviously, more than others. But you do the best you can with what you do have.

Again, just to don't brag about being among the best when there is no tangible basis for it.

AV is not an Open team, and that is OK. There are only 16 (and should be only 12). Being on a watch list that is obviously too big doesn't mean it is even close to happening.

Enjoy the ride with your players/daughters. The end of 96% of their athletic careers will come way to fast for all of us.

Good luck to everyone in the playoffs!

Follow Ups:

Post a Followup




Optional Link URL:
Link Title:
Optional Image URL:

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ SoCalHoops Womens Forum ] [ FAQ ]