Re: actual situation...agree..but good Dr...


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Posted by SGV Watcher on June 06, 2017 at 23:36:38:

In Reply to: Re: actual situation...agree..but good Dr... posted by Hyman Roth on June 06, 2017 at 21:16:02:

: : : : : : : : : : : : I'd have to agree that calling him 'worst coach ever' is a bit unfair.
: : : : : : : : : : : : What we have in HS basketball is two models of running a program:
: : : : : : : : : : : : 1-the neighborhood model.
: : : : : : : : : : : : While the majority of schools follow this model, it is becoming less prominent. Build it with youth programs and coach the kids you have. These programs will have dips in wins as the talent changes. To evaluate them fairly is to ask if they are competitive at their talent level.
: : : : : : : : : : : : 2-the recruiting model
: : : : : : : : : : : : I believe Cooper falls into that category and I'd doubt he'd deny it. I think this model does fly in the face of the goal and theme of HS basketball, but it's out there none the less. In order to sustain this model, coaches will need to bring in talent on a yearly basis as they are not building from within. When a coach (like Cooper) leaves a school like this, the program usually drops unless the new guy does the same (see LV Luth after Coop as an example).

: : : : : : : : : : : : Here's another thought: How would guys in the recruiting model do if they just had to coach who showed up? And...

: : : : : : : : : : : : How would the guys that coach who shows up do if they had an influx of talent yearly.

: : : : : : : : : : : : I.E. it's EASY to coach talented kids (like if you have a 7'er)

: : : : : : : : : : : : The best coaching is done by guys who grind it our year in and out. That's what HS basketball is about in my view.

: : : : : : : : : : : : Go ahead, hate on this!!

: : : : : : : : : : : That's how a lot of programs do it and that's why they're wrong. Hey, idiot HS AD's, take a out a pen and paper and get ready to take notes:

: : : : : : : : : : : 1 - There is the neighborhood model but even that model is starting to lose it's footing. example - Public schools in Valley somehow having 2 kids from Torrance doesn't exactly meet that model. More public schools are finding ways to get at least 1 kid from inside their district on their team.
: : : : : : : : : : : 2 - For the recruiting model, the thought that the HS has to recruit every year is one of the dumbest things in HS basketball and it actually doesn't work. Btw, the only thing that it shows is that the coach can't coach. ex. Village Chr, Heritage Chr etc. Crespi, Harvard Westlake and even Sierra Canyon build with underclassmen. Then they won't "recruit" for 3-4 years because they have the kids that they can actually coach and put in the best fair situations for them. "They recruit every year in college Justin." High school is high school and college is college. The problem is that a lot of HS coaches and AD's are operating their programs with the college, actually Kentucky, model. YOU DON'T HAVE ONE AND DONES! Can someone print that out and give to every HS AD and coach in SoCal.
: : : : : : : : : : : Sierra Canyon did everything right except coach. I'd argue that they can't identify the best talent either. (Derryck Thornton should have never had to leave SoCal.) But SC was committed to 3-4 kids and I applaud them for that.
: : : : : : : : : : : Derrick Taylor at Taft is a recruiting machine. He'll take 5 new players every year. It's a terrible way to operate a program. His glue this year was Clark, who he got as a sophomore. Which was a great move by Coach Taylor. But you don't need to have a constant flux of players.
: : : : : : : : : : : The only problem with trying to build a program with underclassmen is that you still have the "coaches" who can't coach. So what they'll try to do to not recruit or take transfers so much is to have a middle school farm system. This is one of the most idiotic things that you will hear of or see. Heritage Chr currently has this. This is where they'll have a multiyear holdback middle school program, inflate their abilities on social media, have them do as little class work as possible. Parents are to blame for this one to.
: : : : : : : : : : : So now these coaches that can't coach in the first place is trying to identify talent in a 16 year old 8th grader over a 15 year old 9th grader. I've heard a Hertiage Chr coach talk about how physically strong a certain 8th grader is. He's not strong. He's 16 playing against 14 year olds.
: : : : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : : Justin you are Incredible! Totally agree

: : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : Mostly this is direct on point.

: : : : : : : : : My problem has always been with transfers. If you build your program on transfers - then you have to constantly get them because you can't build a program from within.

: : : : : : : : : I would argue if you are going with the recruiting method, you do need to recruit every year - just to varying degrees and it should always be at the MS level.

: : : : : : : : : That being said, you should be picking a HS based on the school itself first and not the basketball program but sadly that ship has long passed.

: : : : : : : : I think there are a lot of good points within this discussion. One point that gets ignored is that true machines- the year in and year out "open" teams- get players in early as 9th graders. These players are already the best for their grade level (not always age group). The top end "recruiting" schools now have a foundation and then add 1-2 players each year based on need or players that fit their system. Sometimes it's a truly special player but oftentimes it's just another good piece that would be a top 1-2 guy that their home school. You can say these team develop their programs but in the end in basketball more than most sports talent wins. If you mix in a coach who has a clue and does know how to work talented kids and get them peaking at the right time then you have all the makings of a powerhouse.

: : : : : : : I have no issues with private schools recruiting. I have issues with public schools doing it. What the adults are ultimately showing the youth is that they are inferior teachers of the game so they need to recruit. That is the bottom line. What I also notice is that majority of starting players want to stay far away from the "coach" once the game or practices are over. Another fundamental breakdown of not knowing how to teach the game. Hey "coach". When was the last time you asked any and all of your players how are your grades? When was the last time you told your players you love them for working hard and doing what is right? Just winning friends and influencing people.

: : : : : : College has recruiting rules. So does HS public OR private, NO recruiting. That people do it anyway is a sad morality play.

: : : : : I agree. Sad but true.

: : : : "I have no issues with private schools recruiting. I have issues with public schools doing it."

: : : : Where are these private schools recruiting from? The only way for some of these public schools to survive with some talent is to recruit just like private. Rules need to be changed, to hard to police.

: : : Totally disagree. To police it as you state is easy. First, parents pick your school well for the freshman year. If you parents feel the need to transfer your son, than you will have to move from the current residence to the one in the school district you seek to transfer. If you transfer within the school district or move to another school to play sports (and lets be real, this is why kids transfer, right everyone!) then the player sits out a full year.....period....no exceptions. This will slow down the transfers and the adult (coach) abuse of using the teenagers for their own gain. Crap, Taylor could not win with the Hamilton brothers in the Trinity League so that tells you he is limited as a coach. He got bounced out of SJB

: :
: : I would mostly agree with you but what happens if you put your kid in a school but something happens that leads to wanting to change.

: : Some examples:

: : You are in private school but for whatever reason can't afford it anymore.

: : The school is too hard.

: : The kid doesn't adapt well socially or gets bullied or picked on.

: : The kid is honestly miserable and it has nothing to do with basketball (or whatever sport)?

: : This is why the transfer rules were lightened. There are too many other reasons for leaving and people were appealing and threatening law suits so CIF made it easier (i.e. cheaper) to manage.

: Recruit or don't recruit or get players that follow you or whatever, if you can coach you will be a good coach regardless. The proliferation of transfers and recruiting has touched just about every single school that has been exceptional, regardless of geography and regardless of it being public or private. Like Hyman Roth said in The Godfather, "I didn't ask who gave the order because it was business" or "this is the business we've chosen". I find it funny how people talk smack about this coach or that being the worst or being terrible etc, but they have a proven track record of wins, championships and players that go on to college and graduate etc. lots of good guys out there that take hits on this site for being crappy coaches, many of whom have better pedigree and resume, by a long shot, than the know it all shit talkers on this site. For all the Kleckner types of that old guy from La Canada that do it with neighborhood kids or the fortuitous transfer that a school like Etiwanda gets without recruiting, per se, there are a ton like Mater Dei and so many other public and private schools that always seem to get some great transfers. Just saying.

This is a great discussion. I don't know what the answer really is. Maybe it's time to take the step of putting the private schools in their own division. That may be a start. Should CIF make transfers (who's families don't move) sit out a year? Would this help? I seems like CIF has just thrown up it's hands and said just do what ever you want to do. Like the wild wild west.



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